PROJECT APPLE STORM
By Kenrick Mock
Copyright (c) 1993 Apple Users' Group, Sydney
Republished from Applecations, a publication of the Apple Users' Group, Sydney, Australia.
The following is a discussion taken from Internet between members of the User Group Connection and the Apple // Engineering contingent at Apple Computer Inc., regarding the Apple //.
From: mock@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Kenrick Mock)
Date: 02 Dec 1992
PROJECT APPLE STORM - Part I
In the first week of July, 1992, a cartel of Apple // users and developers, represented by the Bay Area Apple // Users Group, (BAAUG), arranged a meeting with members of the User Group Connection and the Apple // Engineering contingent at Apple Computer Inc. The intended purpose of this gathering was singular. "To discuss the merits of the continued operation of BAAUG as an Apple // User Group."
The initial meeting, set for August, 1992, was postponed by Apple because of unforeseen developments preoccupying those expected to be in attendance.
Another scheduled for early September, was also postponed and rescheduled to late September for the same reason.
Yet again this meeting was postponed and was rescheduled for November 18th, again for the same reason.
On November 16th, the meeting was once more postponed once more, for the same reason, and rescheduled for November 19th @ 10:00AM.
Many of the BAAUG/A2 representatives had made prior arrangements and were forced to readjust their schedules to accommodate the original 11/18 meeting. (From as far away as Colorado and San Diego).
Others, who were not contacted in time, made the long drive to the Campbell complex for the 11/18/92 meeting, and were at that time informed of the rescheduled gathering. To conclude this poignant diatribe, three BAAUG members were an hour late to this appointment as a result of inaccurate directions volunteered by an Apple employee. Thus this author ends his "Harrumph!"
THE PLAYERS: Those in attendance were...
From Apple Computer Inc:
John Santoro, Apple // Engineering
Rye Livingston, Community Groups, User Group Connection
Ray Kaupp, Manager, User Groups and Associates
Representing the Apple //:
Tony Diaz, AllTech Electronics, San Diego
Mike Garvey, BAAUG Administrative Leader, GEnie Host
Kent Keltner, BAAUG Planning Leader
Joe Kohn, Contributing Editor, inCider/A+
Kent Keltner, BAAUG Planning Leader
Lunatic, GEnie Ambassador
Ernest Moore, BAAUG Leadership Coordinator
Joe Yandrofski, Sequential Systems, Lafayette, Colorado
Missing in action caused by the continual postponments:
Kenrick Mock, Paul Parkhurst, Margot Taylor and Ed Hernandez
Prodigiously Missing: Tim Swihart !!!
This report was assembled from a 90 minute audio tape that recorded the proceedings from the back of the room and the authors recollection of voices, names and faces.
Although the wording may not be quotable, it is extremely accurate! When the voice cannot be directly associated with the individual that spoke the words, the speaker will be identified as either "APPLE" or "BAAUG". Commentory notes by the author are indicated with "{ }"
PROJECT APPLE STORM - The Beef
MEETING BEGINS: {Finally}
Santoro: What would you like to walk out of here with?
Moore: Basically, straight shoot-from-the-hip answers regarding the status of the Apple //. We don't want to be subjected to the limitations of nondisclosure statements and the like because we have an obligation to our users. We'd also like to know what the Apple plans are for future and new Apple // users. We aren't here to prosecute or to be cross examined, we just want straight and honest answers.
Santoro: New Apple // Users or new Apple // Computers?
Moore: New Apple // Users!
Santoro: We're not coming out with a new Apple // cpu. {Being evasive here and dodging the question!}
Moore: That doesn't relate to new Apple // users, but is there a specific reason that Apple has for not releasing a new // cpu?
Santoro: We just can't rationalize it. This is a business decision that was reached at a corporate level far above our heads here! It's been termed as a high risk. Another Apple // would send a wrong message to consumers. We don't want them to think that we have two platforms and it's obvious that Apple supports the Macintosh. {Another of those critical statements!}
Moore: Let me guess. The office of the Apple CEO?
Lunatic: Is it true that there was a prototype of a new Apple // that was
going to be released?
Santoro: I won't deny it! {Quickly and nervously shifted, then dodged the original again!} We get tons of letters from people that have had wonderful
experiences with their Apple //'s from a variety of sources. However, last month we sold 7 //e's and 7 //gs's nationwide. That's 14 Apple //'s across the country. {14 Apple //'s sold without a lick of advertisement.. not bad!}
Diaz: We sold 20 used Apple // systems last month alone!
Santoro: Yea, USED Apple //'s. You haven't seen an Apple //e or //gs in a dealership for a long time. This is a dealership decision. Apple can't dictate to the dealerships what they should keep in stock. People were buying Macs and weren't buying //gs's. Also, it's expensive for us to make them. We do want to keep the //gs viable and we want to continue building the bridge between the //gs and the Mac. {Remember this statement later!}
Moore: There's an easy explanation for that. 18 months after the gs was released, dealerships were telling people that Apple wasn't making them anymore and that the Apple // had been discontinued.
Santoro: We can't tell dealerships what to say either!
Kohn: If Apple had a certain criteria that dealerships had to abide by, like requiring them to have all of the Apple cpu line on display, these false rumors wouldn't manifest themselves.
Santoro: I'll be the first to admit that the company hasn't done the best job of policing each and every dealership. {Spoken with an air of sarcasm!}
Livingston: A lot of things happened back in '86-'87 that may have been debatable, but this is '92 and almost '93 and we have to think of the future of the company.
Moore: Yes, and we are obligated to think of the future of this huge number of people that own Apple //'s, who firmly believe Apple Computer Inc is giving them the proverbial shaft.
Kaupp: Are these people going to buy new Apple //'s?
Moore: I won't ask you to validate that question. They already own Apple //'s. Many of them more than one system. What the existing // user base wants is a solid show of support by Apple, be it in the form of a new cpu or a guy on tv with an Apple // as his choice for a home computer system.
Lunatic: A primary question that I have is, Apple has repeatedly professed
support for the Apple //. If Apple Inc is still supporting it, why can't users get technical support and service from the Apple dealerships?
Santoro: What is support? What support are you looking for?
Moore: A user takes his // into a dealership to have it serviced and the service personel dosen't recognize the machine. They want to know if the //gs is a 286 or 386 compatible.
Santoro: So you're looking for service?
Moore: We're looking for support, from Apple, for the Apple //!
Garvey: I'm in a good position to elaborate more on this because I do it for a living. Most people don't care about servicing, maintenance and the like, they depend on me to do it for them. {Mike Garvey perpetually assumes the role of the service department at the dealerships at this point.} I must have a source from which to accomodate these things. {Reference to service and maintenance.} We're currently in what you may refer to as the third generation of computer users. The first consisted of semi-power users. The hackers and the like. The next was the class that used computers as a learning device and now, the average user has their computer as a tool. They use it just as if it were a hammer or a screwdriver.
Kohn: What we need is somewhere, or someone, to turn to for sales, service and support. Users need a definative response when repairs to their systems are necessary. User Groups aren't the answer because most aren't qualified to provide service and/or repairs.
Diaz: At AllTech we're encountering even more of a problem. We have become one of the places to find Apple // stuff, but the dealers don't want to support us. They get paranoid when they look at their invoices and see all of the purchases made by AllTech Electronics. They ask us if we're re-selling things and they're afraid that Apple Inc will cut them off.
Garvey: There's a missing link between Apple and the end users that dealerships used to fill that isn't being filled anymore.
Santoro: Again you have to put yourselves in the shoes of the other person. Dealerships have to maintain a margin of profit. They want to sell the hottest computer and the Apple // isn't it. I've made a proposal that would fall under the PowerBook service type format but it has to be approved at a higher level.
Moore: There are two ends of the spectrum here. Over the years, the end user has come to look at the "Authorized Apple Dealership" as the extension of Apple Inc and this was by Apple's own design. When an end user wanted information about his computer, or wanted to buy a machine or parts, or get service and he contacted Apple Inc, he was very gruffly told to go see his local authorized Apple Dealership. Now he takes his system to this dealership and they haven't the slightest idea as to what the machine is. The user is getting aggravated because his system has been in the shop for a week while the highly trained service department tries to determine if the problem with the //gs is that it dosen't have an RLL/IDE card in it or they can't locate a chip that has a *.86 suffix. Meanwhile the user comes back muttering "What ta hell kind of company is this?"
Livinsgton: No, he comes back and thinks that the planet has changed on him. Things aren't the same as they used to be.
Moore: Nope! Now he finally gets his system back, fixed or unfixed and he's muttering to himself. He places an ad in the paper to sell his system and when that's done he buys a DOS machine because he can get support, buy software or have that system serviced anywhere.
Santoro: He comes back and thinks that this dealer dosen't do what he used to do and that's absolutely true. We want to keep our Apple // customers with the hopes that they continue to buy Apple machines. Dealerships don't want to spend $500 a day for Apple // technical training for the 2 or 3 Apple // calls he's going to get in a month. So what's the most efficient way for Apple to deal with this problem?
Moore: That's easy, via the user group.
Livingston: We already do that. When someone calls up for service, we give them the name of the nearest dealership and also the name of the nearest user group.
Garvey: What Ernie is driving at is an extension of something that I wanted to get into a little bit later, but the reality of this is that the user cannot rely upon service from the dealerships. Apple has always sent their products to dealerships for distribution and now they're also being sent to super stores and resellers. I look at the Sears catalog and I don't see any Apple // products there. Also, how do I get service for my system?
Santoro: We've just produced a new catalog that has all of the Apple products in it, except for the cpu's, and they can be purchased directly from us.
Moore: The catalog has Mac cpu's displayed in it and there's one page at the back of it with Apple // peripherals only.
Garvey: Does this means that I can call up Apple, give them my resellers license number and pick up my purchase?
Kohn: Why can't Apple // cpu's be distributed by these super stores along with the Powerbooks and etc?
Apple: Everyone views the Apple // as a single market machine. Dealerships regard it as strictly a K-12 computer. {Sound like brain washing?}
Moore: The K-12 crew dosen't even know what to do with their cpu's when they malfunction. They call ComputerLand and get the same story. By the way, how many Apple //'s does Apple Inc recognize as being the computer of choice in the end users home?
APPLE: Actually it's a legal problem regarding contractual agreements with PowerBooks where the stores cannot do mail orders of Apple products. The big legal question was that if we went mail order with our cpu's, would that violate the contractual agreements with these retail outlets? {Evasive...eh!}
Kaaup: Wait! I thought we were talking about why the Apple // cpu wasn't in the catalog? We don't want to sell people //'s, we want to take the installed base of // users and support them. {Critical statement there!}
Garvey: Along these lines of damage control, the dealership channal isn't working. So where do people have to turn? Online services, user groups? What I'd propose is to empower user groups as the go between to resell Apple parts and peripherals!
Moore: Here's a case in point example. I received a call from an individual that wanted to upgrade from an Apple //e to a //gs. Please bear in mind that he did *NOT* want a Mac. I could not give him an answer!
Apple: How would we go about giving user groups authority to resell cpu's and peripherals? Would we give user groups full dealer contracts? We'd have to make certain that everyone was trained and certified. Then we'd have to charge them the $5,000 to $10,000 startup fee required for dealerships.
BAAUG: It's hard to envision user groups selling cpu's, not so much peripherals though. Apple could require that dealerships purchase // cpu's on order!
Livingston: What do you want now, sales or support?
Moore: What...??? We want both sales AND support! You mention making certain that if user groups were given resell capability, they would have to be certified and trained. Take me to any ComputerLand and show me a certified and trained Apple // individual...! As for startup fees, why? The user group would order cpu's directly from Apple as needed and pay for them in advance.
Santoro: The company, for right or for wrong, has made a decision to not pursue a marketing scheme for selling the Apple //! {There we go again!}
Moore: That's what I can't understand. If Apple put the //gs on tv and showed people it's capabilities, they would sell tons of them. For the life of me I don't understand it. There's this huge potential Apple // user base eager for something like the //gs, and Apple is simply ignoring this magnificent market and telling them we don't want to sell you an Apple // we want to sell you a Macintosh!
Santoro: I know exactly what you're talking about and going mail order is what has been proposed. Our competitive advantage is the Macintosh ease of use. We've taken that and expanded it and that's why Apple continues to grow. You have to remember now that the gui was reverse engineered and ported over to the gs! {This is the head of the Apple // team talking here remember!}
Moore: The gui reverse engineered from the Mac to the gs... NOT!
Santoro: We just don't want to go after the competition with a 6502 or 816 vs a 386 or 486. We want to take the Mac, with a large supplier like Motorola and continue to grow. The choice was made and this was the business decision. {Again, this is the head of the // Continued Engineering Group speaking!}
Moore: Wait! We're getting blown out of proportion here. I'm not making reference to 6502 or 65816 technology vs Mac technology. That's a mismatch. If you compare Mac technology to Cray technology then you'd have a case for discontinuing the Mac. What I'm making reference to is the attitude that Apple has taken toward the Apple //. Apple has given the // user a {loud hand clap} slap in the face instead of extending a corporate hand and telling them, "We'll help you over the bridge!"
Santoro: I'll have to disagree with you on that. Do you know how many engineers were put on the Hypercard GS project? There were 20 to 50 engineers on that project over the life of it. It took three years to complete it and how many copies were sold? A few thousand at most. System 6 was a parallel project and cost us just as much. We've made the superdrive card, the ethernet card and the video overlay card, all to show the Apple // users that we still support them. {Hypercard was given away free with Macs and remains a lousy GS program. It also was a direct competitor with HyperStudio which was already established!}
(Continued next month..)

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